Tony Greenstein: I note that in the tirade below, (http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2005%20Opinion%20Editorials/April/21%20o/The%20Protocols%20of%20the%20Elders%20of%20London%20By%20Gilad%20Atzmon.htm) you accuse Jews Against Zionism and myself of being 'undercover Zionist agents of influence'.
Gilad Atzmon: Mr Greenstine, I assume that your English must be far better than mine, thus you better go and re-read my paper. In the paper I say that I suspect whether JAZ are a under-cover Zios. ("If true, and I still suspect it, it is very disappointing but not really surprising" G.A). But then, when it comes to you, as it seems you are not 'an under cover' agent anymore, By now you are exposed. Your quotes reveal a clear image of a Zionist collaborator. You were suggesting different strategies that would shatter a Palestinian gathering (DYR). Here is your quote, you are welcome to read it: "anti-Zionist Jews, maybe under the banner of Return or JAZ, should sign an open letter to the PLO/PSC etc. insisting that they categorically repudiate Shamir and all his works and calling on Deir Yassin Remembered to break its links. What is important is that those Jews who sign are seen, without any qualification or equivocation, to be opposed to Zionism root and branch AND opposed to Shamir". (Tony Greenstein)
As it seems, you are calling for Jews to act under their ethnic/racial banner. i.e. Jewishness. I was sure that as a Marxist you should aim to let Jews become an ordinary human beings i.e. equal comrades, rather than an isolated and segregated ethnic group.
T: No proof is provided for this calumny nor can any ever be provided. Please therefore withdraw this accusation.
G: Mr Greenstine, it is your quote, you are the one who should stand up and
regret your suggestions. Again here are your exact words: "What is important
is that those Jews who sign are seen, without any qualification or equivocation,"
, Why do you ask those 'Jews' to drop their 'qualifications', isn't it because
you want them to act as 'under-cover Jews'?
T: I understand that you have been distributing Paul Eisen's most recent The
Holocaust Wars (http://www.israelshamir.net/friends/Contributor13.htm) which
denies, in the course of defending Ernest Zundel, that there ever was a holocaust
or extermination of European Jewry by the Nazis.
G: Mr Greenstine, True I circulated Paul Eisen's paper. I do believe that argumentative
texts must be circulated as widely as possible. I am sure that in case you have
a counter argument to suggest Paul will be delighted to address it. By the way,
my take on the subject is slightly different than Paul's one and yet, I found
Paul very attentive to my criticism. Furthermore, let me assure you that if
I ever see a great text written by yourself I’ll be the first to circulate
it. This is my way, that is what I believe in.
T: Not that this should be any surprise given your association with Israel Shamir,
who makes a habit of supporting and defending white supremacists. After all,
there is an old saying that when you lie down with a dog you get fleas.
G: With all due respect, you won't find any support for white supremacists in any of my writings. If you read my writings you will find the very opposite. I am against any form of supremacism. I wrote 2 books about the subjects. Anyhow, I assume that you have a serious problem with Shamir, and yet I do not know what do you mean by the term 'association'. As you should know I am not a politician and not even a political activist. I am an artist: I am a musician and a writer. The notion of association means nothing to me. I am not a member in any party, I act solely as an individual. I am interested in Shamir’s writings as much as I am interested in any other writer who supports the Palestinian people. For me Palestine is more important than all those childish political games. I believe in freedom of spirit and freedom of speech. I would fight for you or anyone else in case someone would try to censor your writings. But then, let me admit, you are right about one thing, I am not associated with any pro Palestinian Jewish organisation. I do believe that the Palestinian cause is a human issue, it is far more important than Jewish politics. I hope that sooner rather than later you will realise it yourself.
T: However every dog should be given one bite and I am therefore offering you a chance to retract the nonsense below as well as to dissociate yourself from Shamir and all his works.
G: Now, letting you be the 'dog' I give you a chance: if you come with a reasonable argument I promise to consider withdrawing my accusation.
G: Mr Greenstine
3-4 days ago a man called Benjamin Ross
approached me with a similar question to yours, He asked me to explain why I
entitled you as a Zionist.
Here is my answer:
Hello Benjamin
As far as I am aware, I titled Mr Greenstein as a 'Marxist's: Here are my exact words: "We shall start with the authentic voice of the Marxist Tony Greenstein". but then let's read what Mr T.G. had to say: "anti-Zionist Jews, maybe under the banner of Return or JAZ, should sign an open letter to the PLO/PSC etc. insisting that they categorically repudiate Shamir and all his works and calling on Deir Yassin Remembered to break its links. What is important is that those Jews who sign are seen, without any qualification or equivocation, to be opposed to Zionism root and branch AND opposed to Shamir". (Tony Greenstein).
My point is that the strategies suggested by Greenstine are Zionist in character. Thus, Mr.T.G who claims to be a Marxist is in practice operating as a Zionist. He tries to mobilise under cover 'Jews' into a political activity that would serve his cause, again here are the exact words; "anti-Zionist Jews, should sign an open letter to the PLO/PSC....without any qualification or equivocation". (T.G.)
This is exactly the Israeli philosophy, Israelis would mobilise Jews to do things that would benefit their political agenda. As far as I am aware to be a Marxist is to leave behind one's ethnic, racist and clannish identity. To be a Marxist is to move towards a revolutionary outlook of the human landscape. To be a Marxist isn't to 'mobilise under cover Jews' but rather to lead working classes around the world towards realisation.
If you can't see that something is 'slightly wrong' here, I would rest my case.
Looking at the circulation of the specific text, it is clear that more than
enough people out there acknowledged that something smells funny
in T.G approach.
Now to your Q (re Israel Shamir): For more than a while I argue that there is no 'Anti-Semitism' at least not after 1948. My argument is very simple, If anti-Semitism is a blind hatred towards Jewish people, then it should be realised as a private case of xenophobia. If on the other hand, it is totally rational (a rational reaction towards the Israeli atrocities that are done in the name of the Jewish people), then acts against Jews and Jewish interests should be realised in terms of political retaliation. I would insist to mention that political retaliation is yet to be a discourse of justification. A murder can be rational but it doesn't make it right!
Anyhow, following this line of thinking I argue that the discourse of anti-Semitism is in itself a Zionist discourse that is there to serve Zionism and Israeli interests. I am sorry to admit that many good people are still locked within this discourse, many of them in the left. T.G. is no doubt one of them. I wouldn't argue that T.G is the embodiment of Zionist evil, I just think that like many others he failed to think it through. I would be delighted to see T.G. confronting Shamir on an argumentative level rather than simply dismissing him as an anti Semite.
I hope that I made myself clear.
T: My name is spelt with an ‘e’ after the ‘t’ i.e.
‘Greenstein’.
If you ‘suspect’ Jews Against Zionism of being ‘under-cover
Zionists’ you must have some good reason for such nonsense.
G: As I said I don't suspect JAZ to be Zionist but I certainly see you as a
classic Jewish ethnic activist with all the typical characteristic of a classic
Zionist.
T: Perhaps they are in receipt of brown envelopes of shekels? Maybe some of
us have been ‘sleepers’ in the Palestinian/anti-Zionist movement,
awakening now to deal that hero of the masses, Shamir, a mortal blow?
G: If Shamir concerns you that much I can only be sorry for you.
T: I certainly wish to see a speedy end to Deir Yassin Remembered. It can only
do great damage to the Palestinian cause in so far as it is led by a holocaust
denier and associated with another virulent anti-Semite.
G: As you may know, I performed in DYR this year and it was one of the most
emotionally moving events I’ve ever taken part of. Mind you I am performing
every night for over 25 years. You insist to bring DYR down, and let me tell
you, this is enough to make you into a Zionist.
T: I realise that you have difficulty in holding more than one idea in your
head at the same time, but try this: Anti-semitism and the pogroms led to Zionism.
G: I suggest that you read Lenni Brenner, it is the other way around. Zionism
is a reaction to Jewish emancipation, obviously you know very little about Jewish
History. All early Zionists were emancipated Jews, and even the Dreyfus saga
proves that in fact French left was strong enough to turn down a 'supposedly'
anti-Semitic ruling.
T: Zionist in alliance with British colonialism led to the Israeli State. The
Israeli state led to the expulsion and dispossession of the Palestinians. To
now wish to see more anti-Semitism can only mean you and Shamir wish to see
more Zionism.
G: Sorry Mr G, I don't know about Shamir, but I don't see any anti-Semitism
around, I do see that some people act against Jewish interests but as I wrote
many times before, it is rational considering the atrocities committed by the
Jewish state. Anyhow, I do not justify any acts against Jews or any other innocent
people.
T: There is nothing incompatible with being a Marxist and being open about being
Jewish. When I have to confront fascists or Zionists I am quite open about being
a Jewish Marxist. Clearly, when being Jewish has a political connotation today,
i.e. for most Jews it means a Zionist identity to a greater or lesser extent,
then it is incumbent upon those who are anti-Zionist Jews to stand up and declare
such. As for it being ‘racial’ I reject the idea that Jews are a
race. Only Shamir and his Zionist co-thinkers agree on this. I am in favour
of Jews being equal with others, unfortunately Zionism and anti-Semitism doesn’t
allow this.
G: So please enlighten me, I understand what religious Jews stands for. As you
may know I am supporting Neturi Karta but I have yet to understand what your
Jewishness stands for. Reading your text it seems as if you avoid a clear answer.
T: By your own admission you are distributing Eisen’s holocaust denial
text.
G: Holocaust Denial is in itself a Zionist terminolgy and I refuse to accept
it or to use it.
T: You admit you only disagree ‘slightly’. By your own admission
you are condemned as either a knave or a fool or more probably both. I haven’t
the slightest intention of engaging with holocaust deniers, any more than I
have time to waste on flat earthers.
G: Listen Mr. G, you have to decide yourself how to waste your time, you can
obviously spend it with your Jewish elder friends, you are welcome as well to
engage yourself in a dialogue with me. If you decide to do so, you will have
to drop your violent tendencies. I will try to address every question you raise.
I do not accept the denial terminology, My perception of historical narrative
is different from yours and Paul's. I argue that Narratives are there to cover
rather than to expose. I argue that the official H narrative is an Anglo American
construction. Hence, I wonder why a Jewish Marxist is standing as its advocate.
True, at the time, it suited the Soviets as well. As you may know, after the
collapse of the Soviet block some major cracks appeared in the official H narrative.
For instance, while the official number for Auschwitz Jewish death rate was
4 million (a figure provided by the Soviets after the liberation of the camp
and was presented in Nurenberg) the current figure is less then one million.
In short, 3 million Jews were saved. More than a few Jewish and Zionist scholars
are trying to resolve this discrepancy, can you suggest a solution???
T: And no, I have no wish for you to distribute anything I write, because it
would be contaminated by such an association.
G: You’ll get over it, I must admit that out of your elder cell my reputation
is pretty good. As you probably know I am a successful artist and my books are
translated into 20 languages. I assume that it must be fun to be associated
with me.
T: I didn’t accuse you of supporting white supremacists, I stated that
you associate with Shamir who supports white supremacists. That is clear from
his web site, his repetition of the blood-libel myths and his collaboration
with neo-Nazis.
G: I already addressed the association issue, again you use a terminology that
is inapplicable to me. I am not associated with anyone. I am reading Israel
occasionally, I think that he is a very important writer. But at the same time
I would read every paper written by Brenner. I just read, I am a reader and
a writer. Again, it is possible that you associate me with Shamir but this is
your problem.
T: Yes the Palestinian issue is a human one. It is also a political one. Zionism
is a political, not a religious movement.
G: Actually, I do not agree, True, Zio' is presented as a secular movement,
but then the Jews decided to erect their national home in Palestine, have you
asked yourself why? .... Simply because it is the promised land, so in fact,
Zionist transformed the Bible from being a spiritual text into a land registry.
In practice this is a form of Jewish evangelism. In other world Zionism is a
form of religion.
T: Precisely because it claims the adherence of all Jews, it is important for
anti-racist Jews to oppose it. I’m sorry you fail to understand this logic
and instead hang around with those who wish to deny the extermination of the
Jews,
G: I don't fail to understand this logic I just don't accept this logic and
I ridiculed this logical argument in many of my papers. May be you should read
the following link http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/notin.html.
T: There is no better way to support the Zionists than to give succour to anti-Semites
like Shamir & Eisen. It is clear that those who consider themselves socialists
or in solidarity with the Palestinians should have nothing to do with you.
G: Let me tell you Mr G, you are welcome to get on the train tomorrow morning
and to find your way to Durham, coz tomorrow night night I give a concert and
a talk for Palestine in the university, I assume that I will raise something
like £5000 for the PSC, it isn't a lot but it is the most I can do. I
am doing these kind of events 4-6 times a month. When it comes to socialists,
as you may know, this year I’ll perform for the third time at the Marxism
conference in London. You are welcome to join the discussion. You see, both
Palestinians and real socialists have a different idea from yours about what
is good for Palestine or for the working class.
T: You're not being logical. If any assertion of what you call Jewish ethnicity
is automatically Zionist, then Jews Against Zionism must also be Zionist.
G: Your usual nonsense again, I have never said that Jewish Ethnicity=Zionism,
I said that you, Tony Greenstein are a Zionist, just because you behave like
a proper Zionist. Needless to say that some Jews are far from Being Zionists.
For instance, Paul Eisen would never be blamed for being a Zionist. He dedicates
his entire time to the Palestinian struggle, to DYR and some other activities.
I assume that in case Paul is blamed for being a Zionist he would then just
laugh and move on. But your case is different you can't move on, your entire
world is shaken. True, you have a very good Palestine is merely an instrument.
You need the Palestinian people as a self assurance for your goodness. This
is the reason that you are engaged in verbal activity rather than revolutionary
practices. In short, you are slightly pathetic. And Mr Martin Smith from the
SWP made it more than clear today.
T: Unfortunately you fail to see that identity is more complex and also more
subtle than you give it credit for. Because most Jews will see themselves as
Zionist and back the Israeli State, doesn't mean that all Jews do.
G: : This is very clear and banal statement, and yet you are behaving like a Zionist. The arguments that proves it beyond doubt are published now on many sites including your famous cyber shtetle (JPUK).
T: Some, who draw the necessary conclusions from the holocaust,
G: Why do you think that there is a 'necessary conclusion' and why do you assume that in case there is one, you know what it is?
T: will hold that racism whomsoever it is directed against is wrong and will therefore adopt anti-Zionist and indeed anti-fascist politics.
G: For a change I am in total agreement with you, I am against racism and in fact in my writing you won't find a single racial reference. Moreover, when I write about Jewish identity I analyse it in ideological and philosophical terms. For me Jewishness is a mind set. Nothing to do with the quality of one's blood or the religion of one's mother.
T: That has nothing to do with ethnicity and everything to do with politics.
Your assertion, which is what it amounts to, that to define yourself as Jewish,
for whatever reason, amounts to an acceptance of Zionism, mirrors the fascist
line that Jews and Zionists are synonymous.
G: Obviously, you try to put words in my mouth, I have never said that Jewish =Zionist, I said that Mr. Greenstein is a Zionist. As simple as that.
T: Ironically it also mirrors the Zionist libel that anti-Zionism= anti-Semitism.
G: I agree with you and this is another reason for me not to come with such a conclusion. And yet you blame me for being an Anti-Semite just because I am ridiculing yourself and your own shallow Marxism. Mr Greenstein, I must let you know that to be a Marxist is not just a 'language game', It is not enough to call someone a 'comrade' and to expect him to remove Gilad Atzmon from his conference. To be a Marxist is to be a critical thinker. But then not only that you aren't critical, you engaged in censorship of any possible critical thinking. Basically you follow the most devastating Rabbinical practices. No wonder why you act as 'Marxist Jew' rather than just a Marxist. You probably regard Marxism as an internal Jewish affair, this may explain the fact that you allow yourself to come to the SWP with demands. Look in the mirror Mr. Greenstine, You are just an ordinary human being, you can't demand a thing, you can only ask politely.
T: It is a libel I reject, because anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are polar opposites. In so far as Shamir is an anti-Semite, which he is, and in so far as you are a fellow traveller of anti-Semites and fascists, that is the extent to which both of you are not anti-Zionist.
G: I will not address this silly idea anymore, I’ll just say that reading
Shamir doesn't make one a fascist as much as reading the Bible doesn't turn
one into God. I understand that you may be an orthodox Marxist but let me tell
you, there are some critical readers out there, a quality you desperately lack.
T: And if you don't understand the above, as I suspect is the case, then I will
quote the Zionist novelist AB Yehoshua when he said that 'even today, a real
anti-Semite must also be a Zionist' because the desire of anti-Semites is the
expulsion of Jews from where they live into the Zionist state.
G: We are all familiar with the Zionist dialectic and yet, you yourself adopt
the Zionist Anti-Semite discourse rather than engaging yourself in a critical
dialogue with Eisen, myself, Shamir and many others.
T: It is strange how you have managed to come full circle,
G: I don't know what circle you are on about, we started with you being a Zionist and now I argue that not only that you are a Zionist you act as a rabbinical Zionist. By the way, the lowest form of Jewish existence. As you may know, I admire real orthodox Jews, people who follow a spiritual code, but your Jewishness is a brute set of prohibitions. You are a talmudic man, for you it is all a question of Kosher and Taref.
T: but not surprising, because as I said in my initial posting, when you lie down with dogs like Shamir, you are bound to get fleas.
G: As it seems you are repeating yourself, thus, I would argue that you come full circle but apparently your diameter is pretty narrow, in fact infinitesimal, not a big surprise considering the fact that you decided to spend most of you life in a Cyber Shtetle.
I will just add that from now on you can only exhaust my attention in case you have something meaningful to say or in case you want to address my writings. As I promise I will do as much as I can to clarify any misunderstanding but with all due respect this Shamir, Eisen, business becomes too repetitive.
T: No, you never actually said that Jewish ethnicity = Zionism. However there is no other conclusion to be drawn from what you wrote, i.e by "calling for Jews to act under their ethnic/racial banner. i.e. Jewishness."
G: This must be funny. You are a getting old my Jewish Marxist friend, this is me quoting you. It is from the elders of London (I just added the Jewishness as a clarification). You must be under severe pressure these days.
T: I am therefore an 'undercover Zionist'. Well JAZ clearly do so act, because
the name is Jews Against Zionism, i.e. they are following a political agenda,
opposition to Zionism, and in your warped mind, acting as
Jews in opposition to Zionism is in itself a form of Zionism!!
G: Again, to act as a Jew against Zionism is just a silly mistake that leads nowhere, and yet I do believe in JAZ’s good will. When it comes to you, I am not that sure anymore, I think that you are an ordinary Zionist and a devoted follower of the most shallow Rabbinical school. You are solely engaged in exclusiveness. You better get it, I criticise you in Person. The Elders of London is about you and you cyber friends.
T: I have no intention of taking lectures in respect of Marxism from someone who is supportive of Eisen's thesis that the holocaust didn't happen.
G: This may be true but somehow you don't stop visiting my mail box. Being educated as a German philosopher I am very interested in different aspects of Master Slave dialectic (Hegel). Thus, I wonder why you are begging for my recognition. Why do you take the role of the slave in this debate. I ask just because I am really not interested in being your master or anyone else’s master.
T: But for the record, many socialists have acknowledged their Jewish roots and origins, including Isaac Deutscher and Trotsky, without in any way being Jewish chauvinists or Zionists.
G: For sure, I don't have any problem with anyone being Jewish, as you may realise I’ve 4 Jews in my band, I am married to one and to a certain extent I am one. But you aren't just a Marxist of a Jewish origin, you take it further you act as a Jewish ethnic activist and this is something I don't really like.
T: Some of us define being Jewish with reference to opposition to Zionism, i.e. a political as opposed to ethnic identity.
G: What does it mean? Do you try to say that chicken soup is a political argument? Again I understand Neturei Karta’s rejection of Zionism but what is your 'Jewish' argument?
T: Clearly it is outrageous that a socialist organisation should invite you to their annual beanfeast. However that is their problem, not mine.
G: Apparently it isn't their problem. They are very happy with it, this will
be my third successful appearance in the conference. But somehow you aren't
happy at all. You keep humiliating yourself sending them lengthy
letters and get a short clear cut dismissal.
If you have any dignity in your system you better take a rest. Look for enemies somewhere else.
With Love and Peace
Gilad Atzmon
T: I didn't call for Jews to act under any ethnic/racial banner. Provide the
quote.
G: You are a getting old my Jewish Marxist friend, this is me quoting you
T: We are all getting old(er). No I didn't call for Jews to act under any ethnic/racial banner. Provide the quote. I called on Jews who were POLITICALLY anti-Zionist. There is a difference, even if you don't see it.
G: You better get it, I criticise you in Person. The Elders of London is about you and you cyber friends.
T: I get what I want to get and none of it from you. Your criticisms were of a number of Jewish anti-Zionists including myself, or have you lost your memory - Roland Rance, Deborah Maccoby, Stephen Marks and yes myself.
So it is true that you accept Eisen and Irving's argument that the Holocaust is a myth, dreamt up by the Zionists. Fine. I certainly am not begging for your recognition, more for people to recognise what you are. And you have been very helpful in confirming that you are travelling on the road to the fascist right. I would hope that you would have enough sense and intelligence to pull back. As for slaves & masters, recognition etc. - I'm afraid dear boy that that is in your own fantasies.
G: What does it mean? Do you try to say that chicken soup is a political argument? Again I understand Neturei Karta’s rejection of Zionism but what is your 'Jewish' argument?
T: No, chicken soup is chicken soup. When Zionism claims the allegiance of all those who are of Jewish origin, then it is a political stance to oppose it as someone who is Jewish. That is why the Zionists devote so much time to opposing and trying to prevent from speaking, people like Roland and myself, whereas they probably aren't aware of your existence.
G: Tony you are getting very old, here are your own outrageous words, 'anti-Zionist
Jews, (act/protest) maybe under the banner of Return or JAZ', (T.G http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JustPeaceUK/message/15068
)
You are basically asking Jews to act as Jews under the Jewish banner, whether
you mean racially or ethnically Jew is a question you should address to yourself.
Mr. Greenstein, you could certainly do with just a bit more dignity and basic
integrity. I realise that you insist to put words in my mouth, to associate
me with white supremacist and fascists (something that might cost you a lot
of money very soon). I understand that you insist on blaming me for being an
anti Semite just because it suits your agenda but at least have respect for
your own words. When you come with an outrageously stupid idea either regret
it (dignity) or just stand behind it (integrity). Integrity is a crucial element
in any possible intellectual discussion.
Anyhow, I assume that if you had just a hint of integrity you may have realised
a long time ago that the Holocaust doesn't lead necessarily to just one 'conclusion'.
First, there might be more than one and if this is not enough, it might even
provide us with more than one moral lesson (in case you don't realise, a moral
lesson is a dynamic process while a conclusion is a firm and fixed idea).
For me, the Holocaust like any other historical narrative is a dynamic process
of realisation and interpretation. For me to be in the world is to be engaged
in a dynamic process of interpretation. For me and not only me...Judaism at
its very best is merely a dynamic critical process of re-reading and re-writing.
For me the beauty of Judaism is conveyed by the imagery of a single Biblical
page: a few lines of Biblical text and many different interpretations around
it (deconstruction). On the other hand, Jewishness in its lowest form is the
aim towards the imprisonment of meaning and fixation of ideas. In that very
sense, I am very sorry to tell you Mr. Greenstein, you are presenting the lowest
form of rabbinical and talmudic Jewish existence. You try to determine meanings
and to stop any possible critical scholarship and interpretation. As bizarre
as it may sound, Mr Paul Eisen, a man you try to destroy for being an anti Semite,
is presenting us with the ultimate beauty of Judaic thinking, Unlike you, Eisen
is engaged in interpretation (Parshanut). Eisen is engaged in a process of re-reading
and re-writing. Eisen follows the most radical form of orthodox Judaic spirit.
Let me tell you, Eisen was raised as a Jew, unlike you he managed to internalise
the essence of Judaism, this is enough to make him into a very important voice.
If you were a real Jew rather than just a shallow form of talmudic Zionist you
would stand up to Eisen and fight with his interpretation with dignity. But
as it seems you are incapable.
Instead of doing that you prefer to act under your Jewish banner whatever it
means (something that you do constantly). You run campaigns solely with your
Jewish comrades (rather than in the forefront of world working class). Rather
than joining or even forming a humanistic open discourse, you try to stop the
world from moving on. You insist on locating your worldview in the centre of
any possible discourse. Why do you do it? Because you are a supremacist Jew.
You must believe that you know better. You must believe that you know better
than the SWP what is important for the British working class. You must think
that you know better than the Palestinians what is right for the Palestinian
people. Are you familiar with the notion of modesty? Just contemplate over the
remote possibility that you may not know better......
Let me tell you Mr. Greenstein, Marxism isn't an internal Jewish affair (it
may had been for a while, but not any more) and so with the Palestinian cause.
It is our duty (as human beings) to show our support to the Palestinian people
but we are not allowed to tell them what to do. We are not allowed to tell them
what is right or wrong, we can only offer ourselves as soldiers, this is what
Paul is doing, this is what I try to do. Your frequent usage of the word 'insist'
(you insist that the SWP kick me out and you insist that DYR will spit out Shamir
or Eisen etc.) reveals a clear image of classic Jewish supremacist tendencies.
You blame others for being white supremacists, just because you are daily engaged
in supremacist practices. Considering the clear fact that you can't even present
a simple argument. I would conclude that you should scrutinise your own conduct.
You better look in the mirror Mr Greenstein, you better get used to the idea
that you are just an ordinary human being like all of us, you can't 'insist'
anymore, you can only suggest, and you better be polite about it.
With sympathy
Gilad Atzmon
You insist to be humiliated but dear Tony it doesn't give me any pleasure to
give you such pain. Go back to your Ghetto, and leave me in peace.
T: By your own admission you associate with Shamir & Eisen, to the point
of distributing the latter's Holocaust Wars. The former is clearly working with
white supremacists, the latter has become little more than an apologist for
the crimes of Nazism.
If you wish to sue me for defamation, which I take to be the meaning behind
your statement that 'might cost you a lot of money very soon', all I can say
is go ahead and sue. The truth is an absolute defence to libel/defamation claims.
I don't need lessons from you of all people concerning modesty, integrity or
indeed dignity.
I'm not aware that I accused you per se of being an anti-Semite, rather that
you choose to distribute anti-Semitic material.
I did not say that the Holocaust leads to only one conclusion. Clearly different
people will draw different conclusions and the Zionist movement drew radically
different conclusions from socialists and anti-Zionists.
I find your use of the term 'real Jew' fascinating and also anti-Semitic. The
suggestion that I am wedded to talmudic Judaism is just another form of your
nonsensical outpourings, coupled with the idea that Eisen 'is presenting us
with the ultimate beauty of Judaic thinking,... Eisen is engaged in a process
of re -reading and re-writing. Eisen follows the most radical form of orthodox
Judaic spirit.'
I am not in the slightest bit interest in interpreting or reinterpreting what
you consider to be Jewish or Biblical or indeed Talmudic thinking. Religion
changes as society changes, but if you think a 30 page defence of Zundel and
the Hitler regime is an example of such interpretation then my only response
is that you are barking mad. I have no interest in interfering with any form
of biblical or other scholarship, it's just that I don't believe Jewish Power
or Holocaust Wars is anything of the sort. Clearly you do.
Likewise I don't accept that there is any such thing as 'the essence of Judaism'.
Again it is clear that this idea of a fixed, eternal 'real' Judaism and Jews
is located in an anti-Semitic core.
Your suggestion that I 'run campaigns solely with your Jewish comrades (rather
than in the forefront of world working class)' merely demonstrates your own
ignorance. I have been involved in campaigns in support of workers' struggles
far longer than you (if at all) which is why I object strongly to those who
try to rehabilitate fascism, which you certainly appear to be doing with your
distribution of Eisen's material and your association with the fascist Shamir.
Fascism has as its raison d'etre the destruction of the labour movement.
I await your writ for libel with interest!
Tony Greenstein
ADDENDUM: Letters from Tony Greenstein and Roland Rance as published on JustPeaceUK
From: tony greenstein <tonygreenstein@...>
Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 11:52pm
Subject: The SWP Marxism 2005 - Gilad Atzmon & Holocaust Denial
I enclose 2 replies my Gilad Atzmon to my e-mail to him. As comrades will see,
Atzmon confirms that he distributed Eisen's article supporting Zundel, currently
locked away in a Canadian jail for Holocaust Denial and supporting the idea
that there was no mass or deliberate extermination of Jews or anyone else.
I have also mailed the SWP to demand that they withdraw Atzmon from their Marxism 2005. I assume that they don't believe that holocaust denial and marxism are compatible! However they have not replied, but I've given them till next Sunday before it goes public.
From: tony greenstein <tonygreenstein@...> Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 5:51pm
Subject: Re: SWP Insists Invite to Gilad Atzmon Stays
enclose a copy of the reply of the SWP's Martin Smith to my e-mail and my own reply to him.
Maybe I'm missing something but this seems reminiscent of Alice in Wonderland. The SWP are happy to have someone who not only associates with fascists and anti-Semites, but himself distributes Holocaust Denial material, come to their annual 'Marxism 2005'. My first reaction to the e-mail was that it was a spoof, but apparently not.
I think serious consideration should be given to a picket or leaflet of the event.
Tony Greenstein
>>Dear Martin,
This is utterly outrageous. I don't ask, I demand that you withdraw the invitation to Gilad Atzmon in WHATEVER capacity he has been invited to Marxism 2005. Are you really saying that you are happy to have someone who openly admits to circulating Holocaust Denial material perform at 'Marxism' 2005? What kind of Marxism is this? I understand that David Irving is quite good at blowing his own trumpet. Will you invite him too?
In case I did not distribute Atzmon's reply to my e-mail, asking him to dissociate himself from both Israel Shamir and Paul Eisen (the author of a Holocaust Denial tract), I enclose the relevant quotation below. He admits that he only has 'slight' differences with Eisen.
We may have our political differences, but I find it hard to believe that we can have any differences when it comes to treating with fascists and their sympathisers. What has become of the SWP, of which you are I understand the Secretary, when it says 'Never Again' one day, and invites to its annual event someone who believes it Never Happened?
Tony Greenstein
T: I understand that you have been distributing Paul Eisen's most recent The
Holocaust Wars which denies, in the course of defending Ernest Zundel, that
there ever was a holocaust or extermination of European Jewry by the Nazis.
G: Mr Greenstine, True I circulated Paul Eisen's paper. I do believe that argumentative texts must be circulated as widely as possible. I am sure that in case you have a counter argument to suggest Paul will be delighted to address it. By the way, my take on the subject is slightly different than Paul's one and yet, I found Paul very attentive to my criticism. Furthermore, Let me assure you that if I ever see a great text written by yourself I’ll be the first to circulate it. This is my way, that is what I believe in.
Martin Smith <MartinS@...> wrote:
Dear Tony,
I can confirm that Gilad Atzmon will be performing at Marxism 2005.
Martin Smith
----- Original Message ----- From: Enquiries
To: Martin S
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 9:16 AM
Subject: Fw: Re Gilad Atzmon
----- Original Message ----- From: tony greenstein
To: enquiries@...
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 1:55 AM
Subject: Re Gilad Atzmon
To the Central Committee of the Socialist Workers Party
Dear Comrades,
I understand that at Marxism 2005, a certain Gilad Atzmon has been invited. I am not sure in what capacity he has been invited and I assume it is in respect of his undoubted musical accomplishments.
Nonetheless, Mr Atzmon, who penned the little witicism below with its play on the title of the Protocols of Elders of Zion, is a close associate of Israel Shamir, a notorious Swedish/Russian Anti-Semite who openly works with white supremacist organisations. Shamir's website openly lauds a Paul Eisen's The Holocaust Wars, which denies, in the course of defending Ernst Zundel, currently incarcerated in Canada for holocaust denial. Atzmon is distributing Eisen's works.
I must therefore demand that Atzmon's invitation is withdrawn from Marxism 2005 with immediate effect. I look forward to receiving confirmation that this has happened as soon as possible, as it is in all our interests that the Zionists and others are not aware of this invitation.
Fraternally,
Tony Greenstein
From: "Roland Rance" <lists@...>
Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 7:35pm
Subject: Gilad Atzmon
Dear comradesI am shocked to learn that you have invited Gilad Atzmon, an apologist forholocaust deniers and white supremacists, to take part in Marxism 2005, andoutraged that you do not appear to understand the concern many of us feel atthis invitation.Gilad Atzmon has published and circulated several articles in which heargues that there is a secret Jewish plot to control the world. See forinstance his essay "On Anti-Semitism", in which he writes "Even though theJews only make up 2.9 per cent of the country's population, an astounding56 per cent of Clinton's appointees were Jews. A coincidence? I don't thinkso. . . we must begin to take the accusation that the Jewish people aretrying to control the world very seriously. . . American Jewry makes anydebate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are an authenticdocument or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do try to control theworld, by proxy. . . the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus"http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/onanti.htmlAtzmon, while professing to be a supporter of the Palestinian struggle forjustice and liberation, spends much of his time denouncing anti-Zionist Jewswho do not, like him, dissociate entirely from their Jewish background. Hereached a new low in a recent essay "The Protocols of the Elders of London",in which he libelled me, Tony Greenstein, and several other veterananti-Zionists (many of whom were working for Palestiniuan rights while hewas still serving in the Israeli army) as "the Elders of London"; a clearand intentional reference to the Tsarist antisemmitic forgery, "TheProtocols of the Elders of Zion"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shamireaders/message/494 . When I wrote tochallenge him on this, he replied "at least the original elders (the'fictional' characters) did it all in secrecy. Your friends and you aredoing it all on-line. I wonder, is it because you are utterly sure that youare right or is it because you are fully convinced that you run the worldalready?" -- note his use of quotation marks around the description of the"Elders of Zion" as fictional. Atzmon's latest contribution to the struggle for Palestinian rights is tocirculate to his mailing list an article by holocaust denier Paul Eisen, inwhich Eisen praises neo-Nazi Ernest Zundel, disputes the existence of gaschambers or any nazi plan to murder millions of Jews, and even manages topresent Hitler as a misunderstood geniushttp://www.zundelsite.org/zundel_persecuted/may20-05_eisen.html . Atzmonsees nothing wrong with such views; as he wrote to me, "Re your comment onfascism: like many other contemporary thinkers, I argue that the divisionof world into right and left is dated. I now prefer to scrutinise to therationality behind each: political, humanist and philosophical argument,regardless of its political setting".This man has no useful contribution to make to the discussion on Palestinianrights or the future of the Middle East. He was heckled and denounced forhis racist views when he spoke at Marxism 2004, and I fail to understand whyyou intend to repeat the mistake of offering him a platform this year. Bydoing so, you are in effect endorsing and giving credibility to hisoffensive views. Whatever happened to "No Platform"?Roland Rance